Damage: 22. I prefer 45 revolvers. 45 acp damage human body Another, was a 300lb black bear. And if Im responsible enough to use a firearm to fight for my government, Im responsible enough to own a firearm to protect myself and loved ones. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. I have never shot a people. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. Ret. Small, light, and more rugged than a lot plastic guns. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. I like all of them. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. ammo. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. If you cant always hunt effectively with it, is it big enough? In any event, I used that data when shopping for a lighter and more easily concealed EDC than my .357 magnum revolver and hi-cap .45 ACP. The .50 Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. Kimber 1911 Rapide Dawn .45 ACP Pistol $ 1649 99 1649 dollars 99 cents. Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. As long as YOU are comfortable with the choice, then Im happy for you! A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. Regards Jim, Sorry for the typos are you speak to text because I cant text like my child. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. damage If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. Here is the money point: assume you will only get ONE shot at the perp. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. I also have one that many people will call garbage. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. 45 Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. Combat Medic's Advice: "Shoot the heaviest rifle roundshoot at In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 S&W, .45 Auto), there are some projectiles that have a high likelihood of success for officers (i.e., all three are very effective). It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Daniel, the US has generally abided by the Hague (and Geneva) Conventions and their respective protocols. Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. I imagine humans are the same. Really lets cut to the chase. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet at 600 ft/s will penetrate 4' plate glass. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. Im in the process to actually buy one. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and Experiences on the streets say otherwise. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. 15 round mag of 9mm FMJ unless you hit the heart better plan on using 3 to 5 rounds to stop the person. Symptoms I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. So its definitely capable. What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . WebA 9mm -40 - 357sig -45 ACP all do about 11-13" penetration into the human body no temporary wound cavity, and the diamiter differnce is from 9mm(.355(.357 caliber)) to 11.5mm(.45 caliber). I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Practice more and dont be proud you cant shoot. human body Obama wants us dead. I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. Yes, yeas I have. After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. We were trained with a .45, to protect the patient. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. A century? What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. Also, I question how much influence the logistics command had over this conclusion. It worries me that you feel safe carrying a .45 acp around bears and moose. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. 1996 responded to a domestic violence call shots fired. One of the reasons for the 45 why soldiers love the 45 has to do with the bullet itself tumbling once it hits flesh. They ability to kill. Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. The pistol is not their primary weapon. However, the .45 would likely be stopped from penetrating but there was a 30% chance, with good shot placement its energy could stop the heart. Sign up now to get our latest stories and eye-opening briefings. Police usually shoot from a distance. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Millenials and their bias arguments. The threshold for lung damage occurs at about 15 psi blast overpressure. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. A little back ground, for almost 17 years that I carried a badge I carried a S&W 6 357 on a K frame as my service carry. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Also quoting from the Marine Corps Times: The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the knock down power to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. It has been reported by Heritage about how there are a number of personal protection gun uses that make the news in any given month, but are given a tiny fraction of the attention that mass shooters and other violent gun criminals receive. What type of bullet is being fired? Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. The latest testing shows that modern 9mm performs pretty much as well as the other common semi-auto options, and since it carries more rounds and is easier to shoot (and I dont care who you are, but it is easier/faster to shoot compared to the larger calibers), it is fairly sound logic to select the 9mm. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. WebThe human body can survive relatively high blast overpressure without experiencing barotrauma. Rhee explained that the more massive the projectile, the more severe the wound. Fun to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the range, without soreness. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. I use +P ammo. A .20 gauge double barrel should be good for home defense day for a woman or a guy. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. You can either hit a target or not that simple. A 9 is a great backup. Body As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. Of course, not being in the military, or law enforcement, my goal is no collateral damage! Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . All rights reserved. This represents a cultural shift in America. I like how the author notes that the accuracy analogy is nonsense, thats true. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. Bob. human body career to carry a Glock 9mm. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. Of course shot placement is important. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). As where the .45, would dislodge the silhouette every time with a single shot. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. But thats me. If you like and are comfortable with what you shot, then you will carry what you like. 45 muzzle velocity is 500 feet per second and the 9mil is 1500 fps. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. I much prefer the 45 acp and have used it on game from deer to moose and it always was my go to gun. ), provide a detailed description of the incident and review the critical importance of choosing the appropriate duty-carry handgun rounds for police officers. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. Train! The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). Q-Did the owners of their weapons replace recoil springs on a maintenance schedule? Take this for what its worth. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either. Any round can accomplish that, even the much-maligned .22. Copyright 2023 It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. But the guy kept on coming. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. Watch the .22 and the .223 tested on blocks of ballistics gelatin, a material that mimics human tissue. I have used the 1911 govt. Plus, this decision saves the military a substantial amount of money as Glocks are cheap, and the 9mm ammo is also very affordable and, perhaps more importantly, readily available. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. Interesting. That use the same ammo is the way for me. From my time in the USMC, I saw a certain population fall in love with the 9mm bc of its easier to handle recoil. Example; a bb to the eyeball is very effective. In reaching this conclusion, the FBI appeared to give too little weight to the tissue-crushing ability of the larger projectiles (.40 S& W; .45 Auto). Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. One had a 9mm one had a .45who is gonna get up quicker to finish the job. I daily now carry a 9 mm. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. When the cavalry at the time switched to the .45 round, the round was effective in doing enough damage to put them down more effectively. What will each round acco. 158 gr 0.38" Special plain lead bullet will generally not exit from a human body. Another reason why in war officers loved the 45 as for close infighting it usually too just 1or2 shots to land the enemy on the ground. Lexipol. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. Thats right George. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. It scares the hell out of me to think I might have had to use a 9 mm. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. During the shootout, Special Agent Jerry Dove fired a lightweight, high-velocity 9mm round that struck murder/armored car robbery suspect Michael Lee Platt in the upper right arm. Sound familiar?? A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. Microplastics are in our bodies. How much do they harm us? But Im my opinion, they are tools! Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. Its all about follow up shots. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the Copyright 2023 The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. 9mm capacity! AND.carry what YOU are comfortable and accurate with. I dont know if the recoil might throw me off. This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Just bless his little Prsident heart. I think it is more the exception than the rule. Your shots have to count. Liver problems can also be caused by a variety of factors that damage the liver, such as viruses, alcohol use and obesity. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. My opinion is he got shot in the living room and after he kicked the door in. We had a good chuckle out of that one. What it really boils down to is budget, not protection. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. Hogwash!! A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. He sure has screwed us military retires over the last several years! Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. To me the rest dont count. and departments. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. Second Media Inc., 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. I dont have the time to read it. So if my pill hit my target in a less than optimal body section with ball ammo, Ill opt for the bigger ball every time. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). They are fine weapons and are certainly capable as a sidearm. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. Nothing beats a 12 guage with 100 rounds of 00 and slugs. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. Colt Defender 3" 45 ACP; Colt Gov't 70 Series; Kimber Warrior, w/ Rail; Kimber Warrior II; Kimber Super Carry Pro; Kimber Super Carry Ultra, 45 ACP, 3" Remington 1911 R1 Enhanced 5" 45 ACP; Ruger SR1911 Commander 4 Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless the is bone different muscle mass fat and other bonds in our bodies Shot placement?! I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. Among other things, this Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. It did when it came to FMJ bullets. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? They are both capable of inflicting mortal wounds far beyond practical range. Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. To everyone thats been in a shooting with a .45 Auto, and they say, Thank goodness it was a .45 because I only had to use one or two shots. Its just confirmation bias. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. Lumpy Rutherford's Instagram, Twitter & Facebook on IDCrawl Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. Fired expert m14. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. With practice almost anything is possible. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. Anyone actually seen the effect of .45 jhp? | 1911Forum JP-Thank you for your real life documentation. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all. In a statement, the FBI said he used a modified an SKS , the predecessor to the AK-47 which shoots the same bullets. Really late to the discussion. I have several 1911 pistols. Lee reloading gear. I dont plan on using a handgun for long distance shooting. In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed.

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